As a
practioner of touch and go deadlifts and a combatant of stupid things being
said, I find myself constantly occupied and fixated with the debate between
dead stop deads vs touch and go. I’ve
written at length on the topic before, expressing the value and benefit of
touch and go deads, fighting against the criticism, etc etc, and in my battle I’ve
avoided attempts to critique the dead stop deadlift. However, I can no longer stand for the absurd
claim made by the dead stop camp that touch and go deadlifts are in some way “easier”
than dead stop deadlifts. This affront has gone on for too long, and it is time
I explain the truth: you like dead stop deadlifts because they are EASIER than
touch and go, not harder.
Dead deadlift? Undeadlift? Too many puns
Surely I’ve
lost my mind, no? It’s obvious to even
the most casual observer that one can lift more weight for more reps with touch
and go vs dead stop deadlifts. Yes, and
that is why we don’t take the casual observer’s word for anything, because they
are uneducated and ignorant. You can’t
just direct compare dead stop deads and touch and go rep for rep, because they
are blatantly different movements. It
would be akin to saying that squats are easier than front squats simply because
you can lift more weight on the squat.
If ability to move more weight determined ease of movement, then the hip
and thigh lift is the easiest lift in the world. Go ahead and attempt Paul Anderson’s 6,500lbs
on it. Go on: I’ll wait for you.
With us acknowledging
that touch and go and dead stops are different movements, that means we need to
understand how to better compare them to determine “ease” of lift, in our quest
to find out who is in fact taking the easy way out. The method to go about doing this would be to
determine some sort of training max to work with. Determine your theoretical 1rm by taking your
5rm with both movements and calculating a 1rm based off that. Surprise; I bet you the 1rm is higher for the
touch and go vs dead stop. And that’s
the point. When you try to determine a
1rm for touch and go, you can’t, unless, of course, you perform a top down
deadlift, which is STILL not quite a touch and go off the floor. Your “1rm touch and go” weight will of course
be the same as your 1rm dead stop weight when performed with a legit 1rm, which
is why you need to calculate training percentages off a rep max. And once you do THAT, NOW the work weights
you need to use to accomplish a touch and go workout are going to necessarily
be HEAVIER than what is needed to perform a dead stop deadlift. The fact you can use heavier weights with
touch and go deadlift in no way means the movement is somehow easier; it’s
simply different compared to deadstops.
But NOW we get to understand how the dead stop is easier.
Clearly the easiest lift possible (hey, at least it's not the bosu ball squat photo)
Alright, so
we’ve taken our dead stop deadlift and our touch and go, plugged them into a
program, figured out the work weights for both, so it’s time to do a direct comparison
against them in an equally matched style.
“You have to break the dead stop off the floor reach rep: so it’s harder
than your bouncy touch and go deadlifts!”
Ok, sure, if we wanna be stupid and say touch and go is bouncy, know
what I get to observe about your dead stop deadlifts? YOU DON’T HAVE AN ECCENTRIC PHASE! That’s right: you’re literally doing HALF of
the reps that the touch and go deadlifter is doing. Because for every bouncy set of touch and go
deadlifts you are observing, I am observing twice as many “too harder for TnG”
deadlifts practically dropping the weight from the top of the rep before they
start the next set. Even lifters I am
very much a fan of have employed this style
Literally dropping the bar so hard the song on the CD player kept skipping
And hey, it’s
SUPER easy to have energy to break each rep off the floor when you’re only
performing half a rep each time. And
know what else makes it easy? The fact
that, in your hardcoreness, you’re getting to rest IN BETWEEN REPS. That’s right; all you folks yelling “it’s
called a DEADlift for a reason” are championing the fact that you can basically
rack the bar between reps on a deadlift.
That’s not a feature; that’s a bug.
What other lift lets you get away with that? Could you imagine how much you’d flay a
lifter if they claimed they squatted 500lbs for 15 reps and then released a
video of them squatting 500 for a single, racking it, spending a few seconds
playing with their belt and tugging on their knee sleeves before they got back
under it, walked it out, got set, squatted it again, racked it, and repeated
the whole ritual? What about a dude that
is racking each successive bench rep?
Some dude curling in the squat rack and dropping it on the pins between
reps? But somehow, for deadlifts, it’s a
badge of HONOR to rest between reps? And
these rest periods get RIDICULOUS for many lifts. Sets of 5 that take 2 minutes to complete,
with trainees resting so long between reps they cool down and have to warm back
up between reps. Oh mighty dead stop warrior,
how much you frighten me.
Know where
you need to rest on a set of touch and go reps? At the top of the goddamn
rep! Ever try resting while standing up
with 600lbs in your hands? Yeah, it’s
not too restful. You’re literally
FIGHTING to rest in that position, and then you somehow have to also re-brace
from there before you attempt a next rep.
You don’t get the luxury of being able to re-brace from a neutral position,
weight on the floor, feet perfectly set, sweat NOT running into your eyes,
hands re-chalked, etc. This is why a
good touch and go deadlifter has fantastic lung capacity; they know that, once
they start pulling their reps, they aren’t going to get in another good breath,
so they need to knock out as many as they can in a single breath. Which, of course, is just another way touch
and go are HARDER than dead stop deads.
Hey look, Derek is even bouncing the hell out of those reps too, and I STILL wouldn't want to be holding 800lbs at the top to rest
Hey look, Derek is even bouncing the hell out of those reps too, and I STILL wouldn't want to be holding 800lbs at the top to rest
I’m already
1000 words deep and I’m not done yet.
Once again, people make the mistake of comparing lifts to lifts as
though they directly compare, because people want to talk about how deadstop
deads are like pausing on a bench press, ignoring the fact that, when you pause
on bench, you still have to HOLD all the weight (unless, of course, you just go
limp and let it fall on your chest, in which case, good luck with all
that). Yeah, touch and go benching is
easier than pause benching, but that doesn’t mean dead stop deads are tougher
than touch and go, because no one is racking the bar between reps on the dead
stop bench. And should we now
acknowledge the conditioning element that is contained in having to do the
majority of your reps in a single breath on a set of touch and go deads, and
how people that are in the “dead stop or NOTHING” tend to also be people who
have let their conditioning fall apart?
And are, in turn, the same people to say that touch and go is more
injurious than dead stop? Well yeah, of course
it is: for you! Because you lack the
ability to control an eccentric, mainly because you’ve been neglecting that
part of your training and can’t stay braced when the eccentric comes, so of
course you’re getting jacked up on a set of touch and go. Learn how to be strong in BOTH phases, learn
how to keep your brace, and THEN you’ll see that your injury rate has
drastically reduced.
And this is
why, whenever I compete, I pull dead stop; because it’s EASIER. I’ve been allowed touch and go before in a
competition, I tried it for one rep and I said “screw that”, because now,
suddenly, I had to control the eccentric portion of a rep. That’s TWICE as much work. Instead, I pull the concentric, dropped the
weight, and re-braced, pulled, and waited for the down command again. Unless they were going to allow a legit
bounce (which I’ve never been so luck to receive), there was no way I was going
to waste the energy trying to pull touch and go. See if you don’t make the same decision when
given the same choice for pulling as many reps as possible in 60 seconds. A 60 second AMRAP touch and go set is
realistically a 30 second set followed by 30 more seconds of breathing hard collapsed
on top of the barbell, but a 60 second AMRAP set dead stop gets reps through
the whole 60 seconds.
If you want
to challenge yourself, go pull touch and go.
If you want to take it easy, pull dead stop.
Do you find that your speed off the floor is compromised due to the fact that you exclusively do touch and go deadlifts? I know you generally implement a “rest pause” approach to solve that problem, but wouldn’t breaking all of your reps off the floor be better for increasing speed and strength off the floor?
ReplyDeleteI use both in my training, but I’d like to know your opinion on the notion that dead-stop pulls primarily work your technique and power off the floor; while touch-and-go pulls primarily hypertrophy your hamstrings, back, and traps while strengthening your grip and lockout?
Hey Joe,
DeleteI know I answered your question elsewhere, but for anyone following along, I find speed off the floor is typically a question of getting a good, solid set-up to be able to better maximize power off the floor. Time getting stronger can help, but being able to better recruit available strength goes along way.
I DO like using chains in my deadlifting to get used to moving faster.
I remember a few years ago Wendler and Pegg did a video where they answered a question that was deadstop or TNG and they said it didn't matter. You should have seen some of the comments. I had always been TNG but got caught up in the deadstop is harder camp. After that video I went back to TNG and haven't looked back. I'm stronger and more conditioned.
ReplyDeleteI'm with ya that TNG deadlifts are so much better. I don't know where this idea that they were easier came from. Controlling hundreds of pounds on the way down isn't easy.
DeleteThat's a fantastic anecdote. Jim has done a great job pointing out the stupidity of these things. Had a similar philosophy regarding the trap bar. Something to the effect of "I'm not going to call someone weak if they deadlift 900lbs on a trap bar"
DeleteVery well said. Thank you. Especially the part about being strong in both phases.
ReplyDeleteWhen I deadlift now, I actually try to be as quiet as I can. Mostly because I find noise offensive but thinking about it, the ability to control hundreds of pounds like it's a feather is really under rated.
Just want to clarify a thing.
DeleteI definitely do touch n go on lighter weights but when it starts getting heavy, there's definitely some time to pause, reset, re brace, and go. Maybe ten seconds. However I still do train the eccentric during heavy deadlifts because it's just a great feeling being able to not crash the weight.
I just bring this up because I always just assumed "training the eccentric" and touch n go were the same thing, but after reading this blog and training my opener for deadlift I realize they're not the same.
Never thought I'd say it, but, gonna be happy after this is over and I can take a step back from peaking and get up to where I am, but doing it tng.
Regarding the rebracing, try holding your breath for multiple reps and see how that works out.
DeleteI'll try that next training cycle. Nailed the opener really well in training, and that was my last deadlift before the meet, so it'll be a few weeks.
DeleteI'm very much a beginner and have seen the best improvement in the DL from a deadstop (probably more to do with practicing it as a skill, not being as good at full-body bracing). Since I read Richard Hawthorne say in a Reddit AMA that he always practices deadlifts with a controlled eccentric, I've tried to do the same, and most times, the bar sets down quite quietly, quieter than racking a non-maximal press. I'm wondering your thoughts on this.
ReplyDeleteWanted to add: I do them Justa-style, 30 seconds rest by a stopwatch.
DeleteI think there's a LOT of value in a controlled eccentric for sure.
DeleteI find so much wrong with this post.
ReplyDeleteYou argue that there is no eccentric on dead stops. I argue that if you are lifting correctly, there should be.
The squat argument was a complete strawman. You have taken it to such illogical heights to try and prove your point. How is taking 2s to brace and reset the same as restacking, messing about with your belt/sleeves, unracking, squatting and reracking.
There are also major grip limitations when performing touch and go. You will come to a point where you can no longer hold the weight for the first entire set.
Switch out touch and go for Romanians and start doing real deadlifts
Woah woah, I think we have a huge misunderstanding. I don't argue that there should be no eccentric on dead stops at all. At no point in my writing am I dictating how dead stops should be done at all. I have no vested interest in dictating how dead stops should be done.
DeleteI am saying how I OBSERVE dead stops done, specifically by people that argue against touch and go deadlifts.
I'm sorry if you feel my squat argument is a strawman, especially since I offer no argument about squats. Once again, I'm not talking about people that take 2 seconds to rebrace: I'm talking about people I have observed that take a long time between deadlift reps.
There's no grip limitation with touch and gos when you employ straps, at least in my experience. I recommend using them, if you haven't before.
I think you and I just have a misunderstanding here Brad.
What's so funny is that, before it was a Spoto press, it was just "Bad benching". All it took was for a 700lb bencher to to it for us to realize that maybe there was some value, haha. Thanks for sharing that.
ReplyDeleteThis comes across as obtuse, but at the same time I get your point. Thing is, when people say touch and go is 'easier' it's because it's 'easier' to achieve the same number of repetitions off the floor with the same weight as the capacity is typically higher. It's as simple as that which you outlined in your first paragraphs.
ReplyDeleteSure, comparing the movement patterns directly is problematic but that's precisely why that is said. Completely different exercises aren't particularly useful points of comparison because people tend to track and compare 'deadlifts' and how many reps they are getting. I think that's the whole point.
I feel like the simplifier 'easier' is what's bugging you more than anything and I do get why. 'It's a different movement pattern in which typically a greater number of repetitions can be performed with the same weight as would be achieved using dead stop' is just a mouthful. It's simpler to just say it's 'easier' so that the guy doing a touch & go 6RM knows he's probably not as proficient at the deadlift overall as the guy doing a dead stop 6RM.
It sounds like you understood what I wrote :)
Delete